Clean Hydrogen Production Credit regulations (45V) are Released! Special Interview

The video titled "BREAKING NEWS: Clean Hydrogen Production Credit regulations (45V) are Released! Special Interview" features Roxana Bekemohammadi from the United States Hydrogen Alliance. It discusses the newly released Clean Hydrogen (45V) Production Credit regulations and their impact on the hydrogen industry. Roxana, as the Founder and Executive Director of the USHA, provides insights into these regulations and their significance. The interview covers various aspects of the hydrogen industry, including policy, innovation, and the future of clean energy. This is a crucial update for those following the hydrogen sector and its evolving regulatory landscape.

Watch the interview below:

On  today's  show,  I  get  to  welcome  Roxana  Beckmohammadi,  founder  and  executive  director  for  the  United  States  Hydrogen  Alliance, and  we  get  to  talk  45V  tax  incentives  and  the  three  pillars  and  everything  that  the  USHA  is  doing  to  promote  the  hydrogen  economy.  It's  big  news.  It's  going  to  shape  the  future  of  the  hydrogen  industry  world.

 So  with  that  said,  I'll  queue  up  the  intro  and  then  we  can  get  into  the  show.  Okay,  like  I  said,  I'm  joined  today  by  Roxana  Beckmohammadi.

 She  is  a  distinguished  leader  in  the  hydrogen  and  fuel  cell  industry  known  for  her  unique  experience  in  policy  advocacy,  public  service  and  technology  commercialization.  She  is  regularly  called  upon  to  present  on  the  current  and  future  status  of  the  US  hydrogen  economy  at  conferences, legislatures,  and  other  political  arenas.  In  2020,  she  founded  the  Western  States  Hydrogen  Alliance,  championing  hydrogen  policies  in  the  Western  States.

 With  the  passing  of  the  Bipartisan  Infrastructure  Act  in  2021,  the  organization  expanded  to  all  50  states  and  is  now  known  as  the  United  States  Hydrogen  Alliance or  USHA.

 The  organization  has  blazed  a  pathway  for  the  US  hydrogen  economy  by  successfully  passing  16  hydrogen  state  bills  across  the  United  States  since  its  inception  in  2020.

 Roxana  led  a  lobbying  firm  focused  on  hydrogen  policy  in  California  prior  to  the  USHA.  She  also  served  as  an  advocate  and  technical  expert  in  previous  roles  across  multiple  sectors, including  the  United  States  Hydrogen  Alliance.  zero  emission  vehicles,  workforce  development,  technical  education.  Lastly,  Roxanna  served  as  a  public  servant  at  the  California  Air  Resources  Board  and  Air  Quality  Regulatory  State  Agency.

 Academically,  Roxanna  holds  a  master's  degree  in  environmental  engineering  from  the  University  of  California,  Irvine,  and  served  as  a  student  researcher  at  the  National  Fuel  Cell  Research  Center.

 She  also  holds  a  Bachelor  of  Science  in  Chemical  Engineering  from  UCLA.  Her  education  combined  with  a  diverse  professional  background,  further  positions  her  as  a  leading  voice  in  the  clean  energy  industry.

 Roxanna,  thank  you  so  much  for  joining  me  today.  - Thank  you  so  much,  Paul,  for  having  me.  - Quite  a  background.  Okay,  so  the  United  States  Hydrogen  Alliance.

 - Thanks.  can  you  kind  of  work  me  through  what  the  alliance  is  doing  to  promote  the  hydrogen  industry?  Absolutely,  it's  a  business  trade  association.

 We're  focused  on  advocating  for  hydrogen  across  all  50  states.  We  work  with  state  legislatures  to  first  educate  them  on  hydrogen.  And  then  we  also  build  state  champions  in  those  state  legislatures  and  eventually  run  legislation with  those  that  are  advocates  for  hydrogen  and  so  we  really  intend  on  representing  the  hydrogen  industry.  Yes  we  have  a  membership -based  organization  but  the  way  that  we  were  founded  was  extremely  based  on  being  an  advocate  for  the  entire  industry  you  know  we  operate  with  really  strict  ethical  guidelines.

We  never  run  special  interest  bills.  We  run  bills  that  are  going  to  help  the  entire  industry.  And  I  mean,  some  could  disagree  with  that.  If  they  have  a  specific  way  that  they  want  the  industry  to  come  out  and  look  like,

 what  we  want  is  an  even  playing  field  for  everyone.  And  of  course,  we  want  the  advancement  for  clean  hydrogen.  And  we're  going  to  be  talking  about  that  a  bit  today.  But  that's  the  role  that  we  play.

 But  really,  I  mean,  it  started  with  a  dream  of  taking  lessons  from  California  and  going  eastward.  So  we  really  do  have  this  Americana  spirit.  We  want  to  be  pioneers.

 We've  been  wanting  to  trail  the  blade,  or  blaze  the  trail  essentially  for  hydrogen,  create  new  economies  in  different  states.  And  that's  exactly  what  we've  been  able  to  do  over  the  last  three  years.

 And  we're  really  looking  forward  to  that.  to  helping  the  US  hydrogen  economy  blossom.  And  so  that  is  our  intention.  That's  what  we've  worked  on.  I  think  that's  what  we've  accomplished,  and  that  is  what  we're  hoping  to  further  do.

 I  remember  the  first  time  I  got  to  see  you  speak  was  on  a  panel  here  in  Houston,  and  you  absolutely  dominated  when  it  came  to  regulatory  policies  and  just  guiding  the  panel  down  that  pathway  and  what  the  US  US  needs  to  do  is  in  terms  of  regulation  I  was  highly, highly  impressed  by  everything  you  had  to  say  out  there.  So  yeah  the  USHA  doing  great  things  to  move  hydrogen  forward  in  the  US.

 Big  news  came  out  today.  45v  has  been  released.  We  now  know  what  the  federal  government  is  going  to  look  at  in  terms  of  the  three  pillars  For  everyone  listening  in  right  now  Can  you  guide  us  through  what  you  how  you  see  the  three  pillars  kind  of  that  35 ,000  foot  view  on  On  the  regulatory  side  and  what  what  that  means?

 Yes,  so  Just  broadly  our  organization  has  how  to  take  that  vantage  point  in  general  to  see  how  things  would  develop  for  this  industry  and  so  when  we  see  the  three  pillars  it  creates  restrictions  essentially  and  that  is  kind  of  the  worst  thing  that  you  can  do  for  an  industry  in  general.

 You  know  as  a  former  regulator  one  of  the  most  important  things  as  a  regulator  is  to  get  the  special  Reglets  Horry  framework  just  right  and  then  has  to  have  the  right  mix  of  what  we  call  carrot  and  stick, and  so  carrot  is  an  incentive  and  the  stick  is  a  mandate.  And  so  what  we're  seeing  with  the  three  pillars  is  that  I  would  say  the  stick  was  extremely  heavy  handed, and  the  incentive,  which  was  what  came  out  of  the  IRA,  this  45V,  the  code  section  for  a  hydrogen,  I  mean, it  was  big,  it's  huge  for  hydrogen,  but  what  it  did  is  the  stick,  the  three  pillars,  we'll  call  it  three  sticks,  shall  we, has  dwarfed  the  entire  parrot.  There  is  no  parrot,  I  would  say,  at  this  point,  and  actually  it  hurts  its  intention  actually  to  really  deploy  clean  hydrogen  in  a  cost  effective  way.

 And  to  be  honest,  I  mean,  subsidies  never  really  make  it  extremely  cost -effective,  but  it  definitely  lowers  the  barrier  to  entry.  And  so,  you  know,  I  would  say  that  the  three  pillars, you  know,  has  probably  done  more  damage  almost  emotionally  and  mentally  for  the  industry.  And  then,  of  course,  the  outcome  is  also  going  to, you  know,  hurt.  the  economic  viability  of  these  projects,  of  course.  But  I  still  think  that  when  you  take  an  industry,  and  this  is  something  that  I  was  really  passionate  about  as  a  policymaker, is  that  you  can't  really  toy  around  so  much  with  industry.  They're  making  business  plans  for  the  next  decade.  And  so,  when  you  put  them  in  a  tight  hold  like  that, you're  actually,  you  know,  causing  well,  you're  hurting  your  own  cause  essentially.  You're  sending  out  a  ripple  effect  into  the  industry  and  you  had  basically  in  a  nine  month  period, $22 .5  billion  given  to  this  industry,  which  just  infused  it  with  so  much  energy  and  then  to  take,  to  really  take  that  all  apart with  the  three  pillars.  I  mean,  it's  substantial.  I  mean,  when  we  see  that  there  are  folks  pulling  out  of  hubs  because  of  the  guidance,  even  before  the  guidance  came  out  because  of  the  three  pillars.

 I  think  government  got  it  wrong  and  I  and  I  and  I  and  I'm  saying  this  as  a  person  who  has  immense  empathy  for  policymakers  because  it's  a  thankless  job.

 It  is.  If  you're  elected,  if  you're  a  career  policymaker,  it's  a  thankless  job,  but  they  got  it  wrong.  They  certainly  got  it  wrong  and  we're  gonna  see  that.

 And  so  the  question  is,  how  do  we  rectify  it  as  an  industry?  - Yeah,  and  I  had  talked  with,  and  I  mentioned  this  to  you  earlier,  I  talked  with  the  state  of  New  Mexico  girl  about  the  hug  that  they  had.

 wanted  to  get  pushed  through  and  when  they  found  out  that  they  didn't  get  selected  for  that  is  when  their  partners  said  all  right  we're  moving  forward  then  because  now  we  know  we  don't  have  these  regulatory  hurdles  we  have  to  jump  through  and  I  think  what  you're  saying  is  right  a  lot  of  the  money  that  was  looking  to  get  into  this  it's  just  they're  scared  now  it's  like  the  stock  market  it's  it's  a  lot  of  uh  fear  and emotion  driven  capital  allocation.  I've  tried  to  take  the  position  on  these  three  pillars  that  I  can  see  where  some  of  it's  coming  from.

 You  don't  want  to  have  a  project  in  Texas  pulling  credits  from  Wyoming  wind  farms.  I  don't  know,  but  I  get  there's  a  lot  of  little  bit  of  geographic  maneuverability  that  has  to  be  taken  into  account.

 And  there's  certainly,  I  get  additionality.  If  the  grid  is  already  taxed,  I  could  hear  it,  it's  here  in  Texas,  the  grid's  already  taxed.  You  don't  want  to  divert  some  of  the  electricity  that's  being  pulled  off  renewables  and  the  generating  hydrogen.

 Some  of  that  I  do  understand,  but  it  would  be  as  a  grid  as  this  is,  it  seems  excessive.  And  especially  with  time  matching,  I  think  that's  the  one  that  set  off  the  European  market  was  the  whole  time  matching  thing.

 And  that  was  one  of  the  things  that  they  backed  off  on  substantially.  Well,  okay,  we  don't  have  to  do  hourly  time  matching.  You  could  do  monthly  or  yearly  for  right  now.  But  I  mean,  it  seems  like  what  is  it  2028?

 I  think  for  time  matching  is  was  there  timeframe?  It's  just,  it's  too  quick.  You're  not  gonna  get  these  wind  farms  and  bowler  farms  ramped  up  in  four  years  from  nothing.

 - Yeah.  Well,  you  know,  this  is  reflective  of,  I  mean,  there's  more  of  philosophical,  you  know,  components  of  this,  which  is,  you  know, there's  gonna  be  different  perspectives  on  everything,  right?  Reality  is  for  everybody.  But  there  are  always  points  of  reality  here.  And  so, but  there  are  other  considerations,  OK?  So  yes,  as  we're  adding  additional  loads  onto  the  grid,  it's  can  be  highly  detrimental.  And  of  course, there's  all  these  other  components.  Of  course,  the  regional  component  of  it,  you  know,  I  just  address  additionality.  And  then  if--  of  course,  being  able  to  deliver  the  energy  and,  of  course,  the  time -matching  piece.

 OK,  there  are  reasons  for  this.  Absolutely,  I  can  understand  that  as  well.  But  this  is  where  a  policymaker  has  to  do  this  gracefully.

 Has  to  be  very  methodical  about  it  because  they  really  have  to  listen  to  industry  about,  "Hey,  what's  going  on?"  is  feasible?  Because  my  end  goal  is  to  advance  this  industry.

 My  end  goal  is  to  create  more  energy  resilience.  My  end  goal  is  actually  to  ensure  that  we  have  enough  energy  available  and  that  we're  decarbonizing  and  we're  moving  toward  our  environmental  goals.

 That  was  the  whole  point  of  the  BIL  and  the  IRA.  They're  not  achieving  that  because  they,  and  this  happens  a  lot,  this  happens  a  lot  in  the  right  way.  making  process  is  they  didn't  listen  to  industry  enough.

 They  didn't  compromise  enough  because  what  happens  is,  and  what,  you  know,  is  very  likely  to  happen  is  that  this  gets  stewed  in  lawsuits, this  gets  stewed  and  this  gets  essentially  what  they're  trying  to  accomplish  gets  diminished  completely.  And  that,  and  what's  sad  about  this  whole  process, is  that  the  government  has  shot  itself  in  the  foot.  And  now  the  other  thing  is,  as  a  policymaker,  if  you're  really  going  to  be  good  at  your  job  in  the  regulatory  space, and  it  doesn't  matter,  it  can  be  in  the  legislative  arena  as  well,  you  have  to  put  things  on  an  even  playing  field.  'Cause  once  you  create  an  uneven  playing  field  (audio  cuts  out)  different  kinds  of  technologies  then  you  already  picked  winners  and  losers  and  you  also  ensure  that  there's  not  going  to  be  a  cohesive  interaction  kind  of  synergistic  environment  for  all  the  different  energy  types  essentially.

 If  this  is  done  on  an  even  playing  field  without  electric  vehicles  with  a  grid  with  nuclear  and  all  of  our  our  different  resources  that  we  can  leverage,  then  it's  easier.

 And  that's  why,  and  it  actually  gives  us  a  real  foundation  to  move  forward  in  a  cohesive  manner.  So  for  instance,  carbon  intensity.  Carbon  intensity  is  already  one  thing  that  is  helpful  about  carbon  intensity  versus  different  colors, is  that  carbon  intensity  makes  it  an  even  playing  field  for  everybody.  And  it  makes  the  regulatory  piece  easier.  We  have  the  green  one.  is  well  established,  people  understand  it, and  we  can  leverage  it.  Moving  forward  with  carbon  intensity  actually  makes  the  deployment  of  clean  hygiene  easier.  That's  how  it  should  be  done.  With  how  the  45V  guidance  has  been  structured, it  has  said  carbon  intensity  is  not  as  important.  Carbon  intensity  is  no  longer  something  we're  going  to  acknowledge.  And  actually,  the  thing  that  we've  invested  decades  in  is  this  this  this  I  mean, it's  policy  This  this  way  that  we're  evaluating  technologies.  We're  kind  of  throwing  away  We're  saying  it's  important,  but  it's  really  not  because  what  is  more  important  is  now  these  three  pillars  these  three  pillars  that  are  not  being  actually  Imposed  on  other  industries.

 So  how  is  hydrogen  actually  supposed  to  help?  help  bring  on  more  renewables  onto  the  grid  if  now  you  have  no  way  of  actually  deploying  the  hydrogen  piece  and  the  storage  piece  that's  associated  with  hydrogen?

 How  are  we  really  going  to  decarbonize  steel  and  cement  and  all  these  other  industrial  processes  that  the  government  really  wants  to  decarbonize?  But  now  you  made  that  clean  hydrogen  more  expensive.

 There's  no  mandate  on  those  industries  to  go  green.  I  guess  there's  some  components  and  whatnot.  but  I  This  is  this  is  poor  Policymaking  unfortunately, and  you  know,  which  is  which  is  funny  I  think  to  me  because  and  I'm  talking  about  this  in  an  upcoming  podcast  is  a  lot  of  these  hub  that  are  that  got  selected  You  know, it's  got  very  some  of  them  not  all  of  them  but  have  very  strong  blue  and  green  parts  associated  with  them,  including  a  lot  of  nuclear  out  there.  And  the  time  matching, the  regionality,  and  additionality,  additionality  especially,  completely  throws  away  the  nuclear  option,  which  is  one  of  the  best.  

 - And  hydro,  hydro  and  geothermal,  all  of  them.  - Yeah,  I  mean,  aren't  those...  those  are  low  carbon  solutions  and  not,  so  this  is  again,  this  is  policy  making  done  in  a  silo.

 It's  policy  making  that's  been  done  in  a  way  that  hasn't  looked  at  all  all  the  sides  here  and  I  was  actually  so  excited  for  this  administration  because  I  thought,  wow, this  administration  is  really  looking  at  high,  not  hydrogen,  excuse  me,  the  our  country's  energy  portfolio  in  a  silo.  very  systematic, systems  level  way  that  we  should.  We  need  to  look  at  it  this  way  because  again,  these  are  all  sources  that  need  to  be  integrated  'cause  we  need  a  diverse  energy  portfolio  to  ensure  that  there's  resilience  in  our  energy  systems  that  we  can  move  forward  successfully.

 So,  I  mean,  you're  right.  And  actually,  though,  the  hubs  having  that  kind  of,  even  in  itself,  kind  of  that  diversity  is  indicative  of  the  fact  that  the  proper  and  successful, successful  in  all  respects,  right?  With  the  execution,  economics,  and  even  from  an  environmental  angle,  you  know,  it's  going  to  take  a  multifaceted  approach.

 And  so  when  you  come  in  there  and  you  say,  "Nope,  it's  got  to  fit."  exactly  like  this,  you've  just  lost  the  ability  to  create.  You  just  said  no  to  American  ingenuity.

 You  just  said  no  to  kind  of  the  problem  solving  that  actually  might  solve  really  our  complex  energy  system  that  we're  embarking  on  because  we  want  to  decarbonize  but  we  need  more  and  more  energy  and  on  top  of  that  we  have  more  conflict  you  know  geopolitically  over  energy  on  top  of  that  you  adding  climate  change  and  it's  a  fact  the  fact  that  we  don't  that  our  our  systems  are  less  again  resilient  toward  new  new  weather events  due  to  climate  change.  I  mean,  I  don't  think  we're  really  setting  ourselves  up  for  success  in  America,  because  I  don't  think  this  is  about  hydrogen.  This  is  actually  about  America  and  our  ability  to  access  reliable  energy  and  really  at  the  end  of  the  day, cost  effective,  I  mean,  cost  effective,  or  low  cost  energy.  I  mean,  that's  not,  those  aren't  real  anymore.  And  it's  only  getting  worse  because  we  all  haven't  done  a  good  job  together, cohesively  to  solve  our  energy  crisis.  - You  know,  that's  a  good  point.  And  so  kind  of  pull  away  from  the  three  pillars  because  the  45G  just  got  released.

 Let's  take  some  time,  kind  of  look  into  it  in  detail.  And  we  can  jump  into  it  in  more  detail  and  later  on  bring  you  back  on  the  show  and  really  dive  in.  it.  But  I  want  to  talk  about  kind  of  the  second  part  of  this  discussion  and  that's  what  you  just  talked  about.

 How  can  we  unify  together  to  get  our  point  across  Washington?  And  I,  you  know, as  well  as  I  do,  I  get  hit  all  the  time  with  questions  of  you  talk  about  green  too  much.  You  talk  about  blue  too  much.  This  is  about  an  a  much  bigger,  this  is  much  bigger  than  just  one  type  of  technology, whether  it's  electrolytic  or  thermolytic  or  any  or  anything  in  between,  how  do  we  get  together  and  make  that  energy  march  up  to  DC  saying  we're  ready  for  this  transition.

 Help  us  to  get  there.  What  do  we  do?  - I  think,  I  don't  think  I'm  a  really  easy  person  for  this  industry  because  I  won't  give  you  the  typical  answer.

 I'm  not,  and  this  is  what  frustrates  me  at  conferences  and  maybe  this  is  what  you're  referring  to  earlier.  Look, there's  no,  I,  my  answer  really  for  this  industry  is  you  need  to  step  up.  And  really  it's  like  you  stepping  up  as  an  individual.

 This  is  a  paradigm  shift  that  we  are  required  to  have.  So  any,  any  answer  I  give  you  is  kind  of  not  only,  hey,  a  standard,  you  know,  we  need  to  do, you  know,  A,  B,  C  and  X,  Y,  Z.  No.  No.  it's,  we  need  to  do  all  of  the  above  and  we  need  to  challenge  ourselves  personally  and  as  organizations.  And  so  one  thing  is  we  need  the  practical  solutions.

 We  need  our  working  logical  brains,  you  know,  moving  and  firing  up  and  doing  its  actual  job.  But  I  think  we  need  to  bring  a  little  like  heart  and  soul  and  realism  and  unity  to  the  conversation  because  we're  in  such  a, you  know,  and  I  think  this  is  reflective  of  just  human  nature  right  now  and  what's  going  on,  you  know,  and  I  can't  blame  anybody.  There's  so  much  fear,  there's  so  much  scarcity.  We're  sitting  here  as  an  industry  going  like, you  know,  we  need  to  battle  within  ourselves.  And  I've  been  telling  folks  from  the  very  beginning  that  this  has  all  occurred  that  we  had  all  this  money  flow  in  I  said  look  you  guys  we  were  we  used  to  be  in  a  pond  we  were  big  fish  in  our  pond  we  loved  our  silo  we  are  now  in  the  ocean  and  we  are  shrimp  that's  the  reality  of  it  you  guys  we're  not  big  we're  not  mean  we're  not  you  know  we  don't  have  we're  notfull  of  dollars  most  folks  are  in  the  red  We're  not  this  advanced  creature  to  take  on  the  entire  energy  industry.  We're  shrimp.  We  need  to  come  together,

 become  the  shadow  of  a  whale.  We're  not  there  to  fight  within  each  other,  even  when  I've  worked  individually  with  any  companies,  you  know,  they're  still,  they're  still,  they're  still,

 you  know,  operating  in  small  niches,  right?  So  they're  not  even  full  on  real  competitors.  And  so  for  us  to,  go  in  and  fight  amongst  ourselves,  this  is  why  we're  in  the  position  we're  in.

 It's  because  we  didn't  unify.  It's  because  we  didn't  see  the  bigger  picture.  It's  because  we  didn't  level  up.  We  are  now  in  the  big  leagues.  So  we  need  to  act  like  we're  in  the  big  leagues.

 And  right  now,  that  means  it's  taking  a  really  systems  level  perspective  and  saying,  Hey,  you  know,  everybody  wants  to  come  in  at  hydrogen.  for  their  own  purposes.

 And  this  is,  I'm  talking  about  the  traditional  hydrogen  industry,  those  that,  you  know,  they  make  their,  their  bread  and  butter  is  hydrogen.  What  we  need  to  do  is  level  up  and  say,  hey,

 I  know  that,  hey,  you  might,  let's  just  say,  I'm  using  this  example  and  maybe  this  is  a  bad  example,  but  hey,  I'm  IGCA  and  I'm  IGCB.  You  know,  technically  we're  competitors.

 competitors.  I  don't  care  that  you  guys  are  competitors.  You're  not  competitors  yet,  right?  Because  as  we  can  see  that  in  another  year,  right?  It  was  like  less  than  two  years  after  the  IRA  that  everything  poof  can  be  gone.

 So  really  everyone  needs  to  come  together  and  say  we  can  hash  out  our  differences.  But  as  of  right  now,  from  my  perspective  as  a  lobbyist,  we  failed.

 failed  at  coalition  building.  We  don't  have  an  industry.  This  is  why  we're  in  the  position  we're  in.  And  now  that  45  years  out,  we  need  to  come  together  for  the  common  period  and  really  say,

 hey,  we  need  to  loosen,  we  need  to  like  whittle  down  these  sticks  because  the  carrot  has  disappeared.  So  let's  try  to  get  a  balance  here  for  all  of  us  to  thrive.

 because  I  don't,  what's  ironic  about  all  of  this  stuff  is  like,  you  know,  we're  like,  hey,  40,  the  thought  was  45  v  is  just  enabling  more,  you  know,  green  hydrogen  versus  blue.

 But  then  I  think  it's  her  green  hydrogen  more  than  it's  her  blue.  And  it's  like,  we're  publishing  anything  other  than.  And  this  might  be  a  reflection  of  why  the  government  equally  has  not  come  up  with  a  good  solution  for  us.

 And  you  know,  like  I  mentioned  New  Mexico  earlier,  Exxon's  going  to  be  doing  their  thing,  their  Baytown  is  going  to  be  pumping  out  hydrogen  day  and  night,  just  monstrous  amounts  of  it.

 Those  are,  those  are  just  going  to  keep  going.  Outside  of  the  US,  you've  got  Saudi  Arabia  starting  to  pump  out  grain.  Japan  just  put  in  what  is  it,  $21  billion  into  their  hydrogen  investments.

 Australia  is  going  to  keep  running  forward.  Germany  and  Spain,  the  entire  European  backbone  plan  is  going  to  keep  moving  forward.  The  rest  of  the  world  is  going  to  keep  moving  forward.  They're  going  to  find  their  way  forward  because  they  want  to.

 The  US  has  to  be  able  to  not  just  meet  it  but  exceed  it  because  we  do  want  to  be  global  industry,  global  energy  leaders.  And  it's  going  to  take  some  adults  in  the  room  to  stand  up,

 say,  quit  bickering.  Let's  move  forward  together.  And,  you  know,  once  once  we  have  this  industry  established,  then  you  can  start  fighting  over  the  50  trillion  dollar  pie.

 But  let's  let's  get  that  first  before  we  start  fighting.  Yeah,  thank  you  for  perspective.  Thank  you.  You're  right.  100 %  there's  over  130  countries  that  had  national  strategies  before  the  US  did  What  does  that  say  and  we  have  a  pretty  established  hydrogen  industry  here?

 We  do  have  we  are  looking  at  hydrogen  being  the  next  tactical  field  according  to  the  US  Army  What  does  that  mean  when  Russia  is  saying  in  2020?  They  want  to  be  the  number  one  exporter  of  hydrogen.

 What  does  that  indicate?  I  mean,  this  is  much  bigger  than  us  us  and  how  we're  squabbling.  We're  squabbling  over  crumbs.  And  that  was  why  we  were  organized  too.

 I  mean,  how  we  should  be  existed  because  I  went  into  the  hydrogen  industry  in  California  and  said,  why  are  we  settling  for  crumbs?  And  we're  still  settling  for  crumbs.  You're  right.  Look,  there's  a  global  marketplace  that  we  can  leverage.

 We  should  be  the  global  leaders.  100 %  But  we're  sitting  here  and  we're  arguing  amongst  each  other.  So  we,  our  industry  needs  perspective.  Our  industry  needs  to  go  like,

 "Hey,  you  know  what?  "We  need  to  build,  "we  need  to  actually  promote  the  production  in  the  country.  "We  need  to  be  the  leader  globally."  Because  this  isn't,  do  we  wanna  maintain  our  leadership  globally  as  the  US?

 Yeah,  so  that's  why  we're  here.  have  a  campaign  that's  called  Hygiene  Can  Save  America?  That's  not  fear,  because  that's  the  reality,  but  we  should  be  talking  about  decarbonizing  the  entire  North  America,  decarbonizing  our  freight  corridor  system.

 We  should  talk  about  bringing  our  entire  supply  chain  for  this  hydrogen  industry  into  the  Americas.  We  need  to  be  preparing.  We  shouldn't  be  doing  what  we're  doing  so  far.  And  so  it's  a  great  disappointment,

 but  there's...  within  opportunities  like  this,  it  highlights  what's  going  wrong  and  what  can  be  done  right.  And  what  we  need  to  do  is  change  our  perspective  as  an  industry,

 look  at  it  from  a  systems  level.  That  means  global  level.  And  that  means  that  we  need  to  identify  and  get  really  clear  about  the  opportunities.  You're  bringing  up  so  many  opportunities.

 Now,  Europe  is  leading  with  the  amount  of  hydrogen  projects  that  they  have.  And  guess  what  they're  looking  for?  at  other  other  continents,  you  know,  to  actually  bring  that  hydrogen  in  and  so  the  question  is,

 are  we  going  to  continue  losing  our,  our  ground  and  I  mean,  it's  a  global  market  share  that  we're  losing.  Absolutely.

 Because  there,  there,  there  is  an  economic  underlying  base  to  all  of  this.  And.  And,  you  know,  when  I  said  50  trillion  earlier,  that's  probably  a  small  number.

 It's  gonna  be  up  there.  And  it's  up  for  grabs.  I  know  a  lot  of  private  industry  is  already  making  their  way  to  it.  I  mentioned  Exxon  earlier,  Chev  run  a  lot  of  the  oil  and  gas  super  majors  have  invested  into  it.

 So  we're  in  wind  developers,  everybody  else  outside  the  hydrogen  industry  is  coming  in  because  they  know  how  to  do  this.  - Well,  I'll  tell  you  what,  I  know  we're  bumping  up  on  time  here.

 Let's  keep  meeting.  Let's  start  driving  some  solutions,  okay?  Maybe  the  next  time  we  get  together,  let's  dive  into  the  three  pillars  a  little  bit  more  into  some  detail  and  see  if  we  can  maybe  plow  some  economic  solutions.

 We  can  find  some  silver  linings  in  these  and  if  not,  we'll  be  right  back.  can  say,  okay,  well,  let's,  let's  go  make  our,  our  names  known  in  DC  and  how  we  can  get  some  of  these  changes  affected.

 Yeah.  You  know,  Paul,  thank  you  for  that.  And  that  reminds  me  of  something  that  I'd  like  to  keep  telling  folks  is  that  remember  these  policies  do  exist,  but  it  doesn't  mean  that  it  means  that  you  can't  just  produce  hydrogen  anymore.

 Yes,  they're,  they're,  they're  cherries  on  top.  They're  subsidies,  but  it  doesn't  mean  that  the  hydrogen  industry  is  dead.  We  can  wait.  keep  moving  forward  in  anything.  I  highly  recommend  folks  continue  building  up  projects  because  when  you're  on  the  ground,

 it  actually  helps  propel  the  policy.  It  helps  to  justify  the  policy  to  help  advance  you.  So  I  don't  want  anyone  to  be  discouraged  if  anything  keep  going.  And  really  my  dream  is  to  see  all  of  these,

 I  call  them  settlements,  I'm  kind  of  cute  about  this,  but  I  want  to  see...  all  of  these  little  hydrogen  settlements,  right?  I  want  to  continue  to  see  hydrogen  growing  in  all  of  these  different  regions.  And,

 you  know,  I  hope  I'm  praying  that  we  all,  you're  right.  We  should  all  be  out  in  DC.  We  should  be  marching  in  DC  because  this  isn't  about  hydrogen.

 This  is  about  humanity.  This  is  about  this  country.  This  is  so  much  broader.  And  if  we  can  open  up  our  eyes,  we  can  finally  see  that  and  actually  really  be  the  strong  voice  that  we  should  be  because  100%,

 I  think  what  DC  is  a  what  happened  is  always  going  to  be  indicative  and  a  reflection  of  us  as  an  industry.  Always  anything  that  occurs  is  going  to  be  a  reflection  of  who  we  are  as  people  and  as  organizations.

 What  this  has  shown  me.  is  that  we  are  certainly  not  aligned  as  an  industry.  We  could  have  had  this  be  fair  for  everybody.

 It  could  have  been  fair  for  and  fair  across  all  energy  systems.  And  it's  not.  So  I  think  we  need  to  do  better.  Let's  keep  this  conversation  moving  forward.

 Let's  get,  like  I  said,  some  adults  in  the  room,  bring  everyone  together.  together.  Let's  all  have  a  seat  at  the  table  where  we  can  discuss  policy,  economics,  and  make  the  best  fit  for  everyone.

 Before  I  sign  off  today,  before  we  sign  off  today,  the  United  States  Hydrogen  Alliance,  if  listeners  want  to  know  more  about  this  alliance,  where  can  they  go?  - Oh,

 well,  they  can  go  to  our  website,  just  www.  U .S.  Hydrogen  Alliance .org. .org.  We're  pretty  active  on  LinkedIn  as  well.  You  can  catch  us  on  there.  You  can  catch  me  on  LinkedIn.  But  I  just  want  to  thank  you,

 Paul,  for  having  a  voice,  for  being  a  voice  for  a  hydrogen,  for  having  these  really  important  conversations.  And  I  think  that  we  have  to  lead  by  example  in  your  leading  by  examples.

 I'm  so  grateful  to  you.  Thank  you.  I  appreciate  it.  All  right.  That's  it  for  me,  everyone.  Again,  we're  gonna  have  Roxanna  back  to  discuss  these  three  pillars  in  more  detail  as  we're  starting  to  uncover  what  they  actually  mean.

 So  stay  tuned  for  further  podcasts.  I'll  talk  to  you  later.  All  right.  That  was  it.  We're  done.  That  one  better  than  I  thought.

 Oh,  it's  easy.  I  always  get  nervous  and  then  I  do  it  and  then  I'm  like,  Oh,  yeah,  I  forgot.  I  always  do  too.  It's  like,  oh,  no  I  actually  enjoyed  this  Yeah,

 no,  that  was  so  good.  I'm  so  glad  I  really  I'm  poem  so  serious  like  we  we  should  continue  doing  this  Absolutely,  um  Let's  you  want  to  meet  back  up  in  two  weeks?

 Absolutely.  Yeah,  let's  definitely  get  together  the  first  of  the  year  like  anytime  the  first  week  um  Let  me  know  as  soon  as  you  can  get  this  out.  Oh,  are  you  okay  with  us  also  kind  of  like  taking  the  podcast  and  like,

 we  would  promote  the  podcast  but  also  can,  I  don't  know  how  this  works  exactly.  How  can  we  post  it  also  on  our  YouTube  channel?  Can  we  like?  - Well,

 I  can  send  the  video  to  you.  You  can  do  whatever  it  is  that  you  like  with  it.  I'm  going  to  save  it  on.  our  file  share  system.  My  producer  can  get  it.

 He'll  get  to  it  whenever  he  gets  to  it.  I  know  he's  super  busy  and  swamped  with  Christmas  activities.  But  we'll  get  it  posted  as  soon  as  we  can.

 I'll  send  you,  I  don't  know  how  to  get  the  video  to  you  'cause  it  is  big.  I'll  figure  out  a  way  to  get  it  to  you.  Yeah,  maybe  a  drop  box  or  something.  like  that.  - Yeah,  I'll  just  put  it  on  my  Dropbox  and  you  can  get  to  it.

 - Do  you  think  that,  so  you  do  think  it'll  come  out  by  tomorrow?  - I  don't  know,  I  really  don't.  I'm  gonna  send  it  to  him,  hopefully  he  can  get  to  it,  but  if  he  doesn't  get  to  it  then,

 or  if  he  does  post  it  tonight,  it's  just  going  to  be  the  raw  interview.  So  no  editing  or  anything.  - I  think  the  raw  interview,  well,  but  you're  still  gonna  have  your  intro.

 and  stuff,  like  the  little  song.  - We  might  cut  that  out.  - Okay.  - We  might  just  release  it  as  like  a  special  report.  I  don't  know.  - That  could  be  cool.

 I  mean,  definitely,  I  mean,  by  tomorrow,  that  would  be  great.  You  probably  can't  obviously  post  it  before.  - No,  no,  no,  we're  used  to  that.  - Okay,

 so  sometime  tomorrow,  I  mean,  that  would  be  great.  We  would  hype  it  out.  Like,  I  think  tomorrow's  gonna  be  a  shit  show.  Like,  everyone's  gonna  be  losing  their  mind.  So  it's  gonna  be  a  problem.  - 100%.

 - It's  gonna  be  a  problem.